By Peter Bernath & David Halprin, Editors-in-Chief, Aikido Online

[Editor’s note: This interview with T.K. Chiba, 8th Dan, Shihan, was conducted at the US Aikido Federation Eastern Region Summer Camp held at Hampshire Collage in Amherst, Massachusetts in August, 2000. Parts of it are featured in New England Aikikai's new video documenting the visit of the Third Doshu to camp. (That video can be purchased in Aikido Online’s marketplace.) We would like to thank Kanai Sensei for allowing us to present this transcript on Aikido Online.

Peter Bernath, 6th Dan is Chief Instructor of Florida Aikikai and David Halprin, 6th Dan is Chief Instructor of Framingham Aikikai and Instructor at New England Aikikai. Photos courtesy Celebration '84 videotape, New York Aikikai.]

Part 3

We have a technical question...

I love it! [laughs]

What are the key technical, mental, and spiritual principles that students should observe or be aware of in their practice?

Well, you’d better not try to separate between spiritual discipline and physical discipline. You cannot separate them. Like any individual human substance, the substantial nature cannot be divided into aspects, body and spirit. They are one. So you take Aikido’s form, we train, there’s spirit already there. Without spirit there is no form. Through the form, spirit is manifested; it’s already there.

The object is to keep your eyes open to that aspect, and train your body, build up your body, develop what I call the Aikido body through training, adequate, proper training. I like to see Aikido students build their body according to Aikido principles. It’s not bodybuilding of this type [mimes lifting weights], you understand. (laughs)

Technically, what I teach to my students is the three W’s: when, where, with what. This is O-Sensei’s teaching also. “Where” is distancing, space, dealing with space. “When” is timing. “What” is individual technique. You have to learn, you have to get polish, educate, discipline your full body with these three principles through the learning of forms, and assimilate through this what we call awareness, martial awareness. If I say the exact words of O-Sensei, “where, when, with what to kill opponent”.

The Founder said this. He also said, however, that Aikido chooses not to kill, but to lead. There is everything there, as far as I’m concerned. There is profound technical martial principle. There is a profound spiritual principle in his words, in that teaching of the three elements, the three W’s. In English three W’s, not necessarily in Japanese! (laughs).

In O-Sensei’s diary, which I possess, written around 1942, he clearly states “I have to get him before he gets me.” You know what he meant? Get him meant kill him! Everyone understands the view of Aikido in which O-Sensei was a lovely old man, that he talked always about love, peace, unity and everything; but you must understand that he came through that earlier stage.

Sensei, you mentioned that you didn’t intend to be a professional teacher. Being a teacher has two aspects, one deals purely with martial arts, and another that involves organizing and spreading Aikido. How do you think about that?

I have no concrete answer for that. I sometimes feel that I made a big mistake becoming an Aikido teacher. Because being a professional teacher, it’s difficult to keep your art pure, intention pure, because life gets into it, families, money; you start counting heads of dojo members. It’s very painful, you know. You have to be really stubborn, sometimes very stubborn, to not compromise anything, to keep the art as pure as possible. Then you starve.

I starved for many years, especially the first few years in England. It was terrible. But you know, I have learned a lot of lessons out of it. As I said earlier, I don’t have any absolute answer to my own dream. At the same time, probably the most pleasurable things I’ve found in my life is to see my students growing: their transitions, the breakthroughs they make through training, their transformations. It’s very enjoyable to see, it makes me happy.

I would be very happy if I could have some decent job, if it were the kind of profession that incorporated well with Aikido, and allowed me to make my living without relying on income from my teaching. That’s what I sought, but it was too late. I went to England for three years by contract, and I said, “Okay, three years, that’s enough.” Then, I found after three years, nothing, nothing had been established, so I said, another two years, that makes five years! Five years came: nothing much. So I kept staying on in England, Great Britain, work, work, work. And ten years after, okay, I felt I did something. So I left. But it was too late to change any profession. Actually I went to look for a job, and nobody would employ me: after forty, you know. (laughs)

Was this when you went back in Japan, or when you were still in England?

Back in Japan. After forty you can do nothing. I can be good bodyguard! [laughs]

So when you first went back to Japan after England, you were considering not teaching Aikido?

Well, not in a real sense, but it was sort of sitting in my subconsciousness, you know, looking for chance, but, as you know, I came back to Hombu dojo and became secretary of the international department for three years. Then I left. That was really the time I said goodbye.

Then I went to look for a job. I was finally employed by a construction company because I have strength! [laughs] I enjoyed very much the life I had after three years: in the countryside, working, breaking rocks, dynamite, blowing things up! [laughs]

Construction work nowadays is all mechanized, you know, and there are not many people who can do the manual jobs. I can’t do much, but my body is strong enough to do this. (laughs) Then Yamada Sensei came over to my retirement place in Mishima three times in a row, forcing me to move to the United States of America. That’s where I am.

How did he force you into moving to the United States?

I didn’t want to come because I wanted to establish my own life there. But I felt his friendship, you know, in my heart.

You see, modern Japanese martial arts are done mostly by amateur teachers. Professional martial arts teachers are very rare in my country. All the development of martial arts in my society is done by amateurs volunteering their service. Money does not get involved much in teaching. That’s how healthy it was. Judo and kendo, still so. We don’t consider martial arts as a business. It’s a service to the society, to the community. Volunteering by amateur teachers is a very, very important foundation. The term “amateur teachers” doesn’t necessarily mean lower. There are very high-ranking kendo and judo teachers who support dojos on a volunteer basis. That’s how healthy Japanese society used to be.

Now it tends to become so professional, you know, lots of money getting involved: so much charge for kyu ranking, dan ranking, tests, and competition. Every time you go, you charge money--that’s what’s happening! If you want a piece of paper, you have to pay money. I think that is unhealthy, in my opinion. It’s not only in Japan, but internationally, you’ve got this “business” of martial arts.

As I said earlier: Aikido is something very personal. That’s the part I’m concerned about, this popularization, this tendency toward popularization, professionalism, and so forth, that is going on.

Before you went to England, Yamada Sensei had invited you to come to New York. Then a delegation visited Japan from England, and one of the delegates wanted you to come over as a teacher. Is that correct?

Well, I was selected to give the private lessons at Hombu dojo while the chairman of the Great Britain federation was in Japan. After a few weeks, before he left, he made a formal request to Hombu dojo to send an instructor to Great Britain to teach the Aikido section within the judo federation. And he made special remarks that I was the one he wanted to be the teacher to come to England.

Prior to that I was committed with Yamada Sensei’s invitation to come to New York, and I was ready to leave Japan in May 1965, but I had to cancel that. I think that was a good part, too. If I came then to New York, I wouldn’t be here. I think I have kept a good friendship with Yamada Sensei because we were parted from each other for a long time. That can be said for both of us, you know?

Anyway, first I went to England for three years, and after three years I found I had achieved nothing so decided to extend for two more years, five years altogether. Then again I wasn’t able to establish much. So I finally ended up staying in England for ten years, and I came back home to Japan in 1976.

When you went to England, you went over on a tanker ship?

A tanker. It was huge, gigantic, one hundred thousand tons. It was one gigantic tanker.

How long did that trip take?

Six weeks. And the delegation picked up fifty Japanese mats, tatami, and shipped them on the boat, so we would be ready to open a dojo on my arrival in London. And I was first class passenger with Indian servant. (laughs) All the officers were English, all the lower class seamen were Indian or Pakistani.

Sensei, one thing that we’ve talked about was how all of that last group of uchideshi, of which you were part, all of them left Japan.

Except Kurita Sensei.

Except Kurita, right.

Well, he finally came out, though.

Do you think there was something special about this? Was it because Hombu dojo wanted that group to go out and teach, or was it more their personalities?

No, it’s more a question of personality. In fact, Hombu dojo didn’t send us out, particularly. It was sort of a contagious disease, you know, like a flu, that spread from one to the other. One left, then the next left, etc. I wanted to come to New York, and I hated the idea of going to England, because I had heard a lot of stuff about bad food, bad weather, stiff lips... (laughs)

Then about 1977 when Kanai Sensei and Yamada Sensei came back to Japan, we’d get together and talk about old times, and we found out that Kurita is not with us any more. We felt sort of ashamed, because he was the last one of the junior uchideshi. Everybody left, and he remained in Japan, so, you know, sort of a lost brother. So we started looking for him, through our connections and I finally found him. Yamada Sensei and I pulled him out of where he was and forced him to start training at Hombu dojo. Then he went to Mexico with Yamada Sensei’s recommendation. We needed someone in Mexico at the time. That makes everyone. Every uchideshi left Japan, no exceptions.

What kind of hopes or goals do you have for the future development of Aikido worldwide?

I have no delusions left. I cannot see anything, I cannot see anything good or bad. What I want to be is retired. To go fishing whenever I want, go swim, and teach freely wherever I want. I want to go freely anywhere I want without worrying about counting heads of our members.

So I’m going to retire soon. In three years I’ll be out of formal Aikido teaching. I won’t stop my study of the art. I’ll see people around, and get some practice, but that’s my plan, to retire in three years. I don’t like to spread the sickness of aging. [laughs] Poisons. It’s a young generation, time for the young generation to take it over. I’ll be watching you guys from behind, with a smile. [laughs]

Do you have any advice or suggestions to pass on to future teachers?

No, no, no, no.

How about for younger students, beginning students?

No, nothing, nothing.

Thank you, anyway, for your devotion to the art and supporting us for many, many years. I really appreciate it, and for my part, I have great appreciation and enjoyment from seeing you guys in the same path I have committed to. Thank you.