An Interview with Hayato Osawa, 7th Dan

by David Halprin and Walter Van Enck
 

Editor's note: The interview was conducted on August 5, 2004 during the New York Aikikai 40th Anniversary Summer Camp held at Colgate University in Hamilton, New York. Many thanks to Yoshie Fujiwara of the Midwest Aikido Center for her translation during the interview.

David Halprin, 6th Dan, Shidoin is Chief Instructor of Framingham Aikikai and an Instructor at New England Aikikai. Walter Van Enck, 4th Dan, Shidoin is an Instructor at the Midwest Aikido Center. Photos courtesy of Jaime Kahn, Laura Pavlick, Dan Gauger and Walter Van Enck.

Sensei, we don't want to torture you with too many questions about your early days but not everyone has a father who was Dojo Cho of Hombu Dojo, so may we ask a few questions about your start in Aikido? When did you begin your training?

I was eight years old. It was second grade in elementary school that I took a membership at Hombu Dojo. At the time there wasn't a kid's class at Hombu so I was going to have to practice with the adult members. My dad thought that I might be a burden to the adults, so a year before I was to join, my father took over our eight tatami room and we practiced basic techniques at home. Ikkyo waza, shihonage; just the two of us practicing at home for the year before I was actually signed up at Hombu. The memory of practice at home with my father is still vivid to me even though I am not sure if I can call that practice proper training or keiko.

Even when I did join the dojo membership, I was so young that I felt that I was going to the dojo to play but with a little bit of Aikido thrown in. Nonetheless, I can say that my training started around that time, and that I joined Hombu when I was eight years old.

Additionally, around that time, do you have any memories of instructors that might have made an impression on you?

Being eight years old, it was more like I was just taken to the dojo to have fun. I didn't have a clear concept of training and I truly didn’t understand much about receiving instruction from the sensei. I think though, because my dad was an aikidoist, the high school students and younger sempai took really good care of me and gave me a lot of attention as I was their sensei’s child. I have many pleasant memories of high-spirited playing around. So those young sempai to me are my fondest memories as opposed to having a particular instructor in mind as being the most significant to me.

When you were older, let’s say pre-teen -- ten or eleven years old, do you have any memories of the instructors who would later become the North American shihan?

I don't have a clear impression when Yamada Sensei or Chiba Sensei left the country because I was only in 4th or 5th grade. The same would be true of Kanai Sensei.

Was it during your teenage years that you decided to pursue Aikido as an instructor and possibly make it your profession?

I continued to practice diligently throughout my university years and I wanted to continue the lifestyle of being able to train everyday. I had to make a decision as to how best be able to achieve that. I had the option of taking a regular day job and then find the time to practice, but that would not be quite the same. The other option would be to join the teaching staff at Hombu Dojo. My initial motivation was to be able to train continually. So I actually wasn't thinking of Aikido as a professional goal or to make my living by teaching Aikido. It is only recently that I have come to understand that this is my occupation. I just wanted to practice initially. I didn't have any one point where I was aware that my life would be that of a teacher.

Gradually I realized that I was a professional Aikidoist and that I am responsible for leading the students and that teaching is my job. My awareness as a professional Aikido instructor happened after the fact. Now that I am getting old, I feel more responsible than ever to do the right things and perform the job of a professional. In a way, my students made me a teacher instead of me wanting to be an instructor.

In your early instructor days, before you had an instruction schedule at Hombu, would your father assign you to other dojo or off-site locations, such as university and corporate clubs?

You didn’t have much to do initially when you joined the Hombu dojo teaching staff. When a request would come in, our sensei, the senior instructors, would assign whoever was available to visit local dojo, university and clubs.

Sensei, a three part question. We remember an old story about your dad telling you that he had arraigned for you to teach at a dojo where the membership was entirely women. Did Dojo Cho build this up as quite the opportunity for you, and if so, was it only when you got to the dojo that you realized that it was filled entirely with grandmotherly types, and, was that when you discovered that your dad had a sense of humor?

(much laughter) That was a joke. But the dojo that you are thinking about was actually a private dojo in Tokyo. It turned out to be a dojo for children, and while their mothers practiced, they additionally managed the dojo. At that time, I was young and eager to practice hard. Initially I felt discouraged by the thought of looking after children. Also, the mothers were not athletic nor necessarily physically fit enough to take Aikido keiko seriously.

The instructor of that dojo was experiencing failing health and I was apparently going to be the substitute. The dojo was the size of this room (12 ft. x 12 ft.), maybe a touch bigger. It was a very, very small room. There were 80 children using that space. But while I thought I saw trouble coming, as it happened, those children were very diligent and eager students. The previous instructor had trained those children so well, and had achieved so much with them, that I learned a great deal from the experience. So while initially I was concerned, in the end, those students really opened up my eyes to appreciate what my profession could offer. I realized within a year’s time that I had to be a very serious and responsible instructor and that I had to play a more important role.

Sensei. To shift gears, was your first trip to America in 1984?

Yes. It must be 20 years now. I was here for Yamada Sensei's 20th Anniversary. I was shidoin and I accompanied Kisshomaru Doshu as his otomo and uke. I was not there to instruct.

However, you did wind up teaching a class at the seminar?

Yamada, Tohei, Chiba, and Kanai Sensei were very senior sempai to me and they of course all had dedicated hours for teaching at the seminar. I believe it was Yamada Sensei who said, “Why don't we let this young Hayato teach a class”. Doshu replied, that while it was his obligation to provide the best instruction to Yamada Sensei’s seminar, if, for the sake of his otomo’s learning experience, and if the schedule was open, that it would be a good experience for me to be responsible for that one hour.

So that was actually the first experience for me to teach in a big seminar such as this 40th Anniversary Seminar. Also, since that seminar was the first big event at which I had taught, I really remember it quite well. [Osawa Sensei later visited the Midwest Aikido Center in 1984].

So Sensei. twenty years later, here you are at the 40th anniversary. Do you have any thoughts about this occasion?

I don't necessarily have any special impressions or thoughts about this occasion only because it is such a big event. Though, what is meaningful to me is that I have come to America from time to time in the past twenty years, and I now recognize the people from all prior occasions and I'm able to see you, and you, and practice and say hello. That pleases me. It is a connection.

How do you view Aikido's evolution over the last twenty years in America – and, also in Japan?

It is difficult for me to express my feelings with concrete examples. It may be the same in Japan as it is in the United States. Speaking universally then, Aikido is becoming very popular. Many more people practice now and some have taken a different approach. It is good that Aikido has become so popular but still I wonder where Aikido will end up as a result of the rapid growth of the Aikido community.

There are many different interpretations of Aikido, including my own, but I am also somewhat concerned that the popularizing of Aikido will yield something other than the original intent. It may be hard to call that Aikido. In going forward, I think it is a critical responsibility of Aikido instructors to support and preserve authenticity in their instruction.

We are concerned about that too. That is one of the reasons we like to do these interviews. One can encounter inappropriate information in some of the many different Aikido magazines. We are trying to collect appropriate information.

With Kanai Sensei and Akira Tohei Sensei, both having received instruction directly from the founder of Aikido and now both having passed on, I think we are experiencing the loss of many important aspects of Aikido training. As time goes on, this will become more evident. I think we must revisit the fundamentals of our sempai who knew the core values of Aikido. We really need to make a serious effort to keep those important things in our mind as we continue our training. We can’t just train ourselves to please ourselves.

I constantly try to reflect and evaluate myself and do the right things in my training and teaching. It is important to try to retain the origins of our instructor’s intentions. What were your instructor’s original intentions? Instead of teaching and practicing Aikido in your own self interested, self-satisfied way or paint the world the way you care to see it, I think that it is important to constantly reflect back to the origins of what Aikido really is. It is imperative that we lead the Aikido world from these teachings and not from our sole individual interpretations of Aikido.

We were talking amongst ourselves just yesterday about how much of what we have learned came directly from our instructors, and how our teachers were O-Sensei's uchi deshi and that we learned from them. They would throw us and we could feel what it was to be thrown by them. Also, they probably had the same experience from being thrown by O-Sensei. We were talking about how much we have learned just from being thrown -- without talking about ideas -- and that there was a transmission that was taking place. Do you have a similar feeling?

I think the same way about it. There is a transmission through the actual experience.

Another interesting thing is that we always asked our teachers the same questions that we are asking you now. We have all developed a view of Aikido that is very different from what we thought from when we first started; we have learned a whole different way of looking at Aikido, over time, by talking to our teachers and learning through their explanation of what Aikido is to them and what it was like to be with O-Sensei. This changed our view over time from what we thought Aikido was when we first started. This later reality is very different from our earlier impressions.

Speaking from my experience. When you were thrown and allowed to take ukemi from your instructor you felt it directly within your body. You know? You were able to learn precisely from your senses. You are able to feel things that you cannot understand just by watching. You can feel it. If that same opportunity is not available, you might be able to see the instructor and learn by watching, but feeling the application of the technique is very different. Perhaps, above all, imagining or trying to understand what your sensei is trying to capture at that precise moment is really the most important aspect of your learning experience. Even if you are not actually ‘seeing’ anything tangible, you are feeling what they are trying to capture at that moment.

How should I say it? Let’s say David-san is thrown many more times than some other student. That experience will enable him to understand some aspects in Kanai Sensei’s Aikido that others may not. You would begin to sense Kanai Sensei’s ma-ai and feel other aspects that you just cannot see; his ambience; his force, and power -- sometimes this may be simply unexplainable. To achieve this level of understanding it must start from being directly thrown. You learn through your body and from feeling techniques with all of your senses. I think that this is how understanding starts.

Kanai Sensei is on our minds, especially those of us from the New England Aikikai. This is the first Summer Camp that he hasn't been at. We would like to ask you if you have any memories, anecdotes or thoughts of Kanai Sensei?

I had met Sensei many times but six or seven years ago was the first time for me to actually spend an entire week with Kanai Sensei. I found that Kanai Sensei is actually a very quiet man. It was kind of unusual. Often several of us would be as we are here, sitting around, and Kanai however would be just off by himself ( with arms folded and reflective) -- for a very long time, just quietly sitting. For some reason I loved that time with him the best. He was often like that during that week. Quiet and sitting.

Of course we talked about many different things when we were together. But the times that we just sat quietly together I deeply felt of his character. The ambiance he created was such that I was inspired by his way and most appreciative for that time with him.

When Kisshomaru Doshu passed away it must have been a very difficult time for you as you spent so much time with him. Could you tell us a little bit about how you and the people at Hombu Dojo felt when he passed?

I was otomo for Kisshomaru Doshu for many years. I knew that he was becoming ill. I sensed that it was a possibility that Doshu might only last for another year or so. It was a very difficult time for everyone. And he passed. The current Doshu was there to succeed and continue immediately. I knew that my mission was to support the new Doshu and that this would be the proper format to give back to the former Doshu. I had to transition very quickly to support the Aikido community. But I imagine your situation would probably be slightly different than that.

We feel the same way. We also want to give back and support the Aikido community and Kanai Sensei's family and give back for what Kanai Sensei taught us.

I'm wondering if what you ask is more similar to when my own father passed away. My personal family situation might be closer to what you are feeling. My father was an Aikido instructor and my sensei, but he was still my father. I loved him dearly and I respected him very much. When my father passed I wondered if I should have spent more time with him. My father would ask if I wanted to grab a cup of coffee. At the time, I would be busy and say, “I'm going to pass this time, but maybe next time”. I continue to wonder if I should not have passed and gone out with him. Perhaps you feel this way as well?

Yes. There are so many questions for Kanai Sensei that I had in mind that needed to be asked. So then, yes. The same feeling applies. At the time that your father passed away did you feel discouraged about practicing Aikido? Or, did it affect how you saw your own role in Aikido? Or, was it just a more personal thing?

I always look back. I look back beyond just techniques; I wonder what I should do. I always have questions; issues and the realities of the practice of Aikido; the Aikido community and Aikido life in general. I wonder if I am doing the right thing or not. I look back and I question. I wonder what my father might have said to me in certain situations and whether he would approve or disapprove. I wonder about all of that, still. You must reflect back to Kanai Sensei. You are in a responsible position for your New England Aikikai and so you can't help but to ask yourself, would he approve of this or that. You just can't help questioning yourself.

Everyday…everyday. This has nothing to do with the interview, but, it was two weeks before Kanai Sensei passed and we used to have lunch on Wednesdays frequently. Two weeks before he passed we spent the entire afternoon together. We talked much longer than usual, through lunch, and then we had coffee at the dojo, and we talked about many things. In retrospect, it was funny that we got so deeply into some things that we had never talked about before.

Was this your last lunch?

Yes, as it turned out it was. I'm so happy we had that lunch. Some of the ideas he expressed were thoughts that we had not touched upon before. That helps me a lot now.

I am very glad you had that time together.

Sensei, when your father came here we really appreciated his classes. He used to hit Yamada and Kanai Sensei when they were his uke. He would say, “I can do this because they are like my children”.  Also, Kanai Sensei used to tell us that when he was uchi deshi, it was Osawa Sensei who would scold him when he got into trouble. It seems Kanai Sensei got into quite a bit of trouble and rather often.

[much laughter] But Kanai Sensei didn't take it very hard. [more laughter]

[laughter] Yes. That would be Kanai Sensei's version too [more laughter]. And then Kanai Sensei said that one day after Osawa Sensei scolded him that Kisshomaru Doshu came out and said, “since Dojo Cho scolded you, now I don't have to”.

[more laughter] I don't know about those times in particular but I'm sure though that Kanai Sensei was just waiting to get it over with. Not necessarily ignoring Dojo Cho, but probably thinking that this was going to be a really long session of disciplining, just sit and take it – it will be over soon.

Sensei, your father and Kisshomaru Doshu were like partners or rather worked closely together. Can you tell us anything about what their relationship was like? Who did what things and how did they work together?

My father was probably ten years older than Doshu and it was a hierarchical relationship with my father in Doshu's service.

Was Dojo Cho's job the day-to-day workings of the dojo?

Technically speaking, Doshu is head of the Aikido community -- all Aikikai dojo. Dojo Cho oversaw operation of the Hombu Dojo and all matters of administration and teaching. Unlike corporate structures, it is more as though my father’s role was to support the Doshu and make things easier for the Doshu at the Hombu while supporting his vision for the greater community.

We don't want to keep you too much longer Sensei but given Kanai Sensei's death, it has us thinking about so many things, similar things to what you had mentioned earlier. One thing is, Aikido comes from Japan and all of our teachers are Japanese, but someday in America the instructors are going to all be American born. One of the aspects we enjoy about Aikido is the Japanese part. So we're trying to understand and address that, but it is hard for us in many respects. I wonder how Sensei views the issues of communicating across cultural boundaries? Do you think that it is particularly difficult? And, do you have any ideas on how we should approach this issue?

Cultural differences aside. Your concerns are not unique. The art originated in Japan but I can apply your thought to today’s Japan as well. O-Sensei created Aikido with certain aspects in mind but the times have changed. Aikido has evolved and we don't operate the same way in Japan as when O-sensei created Aikido. A big challenge amongst the Japanese instructors is determining what is most important to preserve. What to pass on to the next generation.

Japanese instructors are struggling as to how best bridge the cultures and bring forward the values from when Aikido was created as well. America may be a different country but the nature of our struggle is the same. We have thought that there could be an organized effort to handle this challenge by taking a team approach. But ultimately, what is most important is individual awareness and responsibility when making an effort to deal with this subject. I think it is important to preserve what was passed down from the previous generations and also find reasonable ways to apply those values in the cultural context of the times. It is a constant struggle. You can only hope to do your best.

Well, we look forward to struggling along with you Sensei. Thank you.

Hai. Thank you very much.